how fast is too fast

[mrbb]

this is regards to the post about arrow speeds
at what speed does anyone feel archery would change?
I mean, when compounds came out , there was a HUGE boycot and up roar about them, being so FAST and flatter shooting, and the let off debate about them not being fair to use on game, as to REAL archery bows and arrow!
you younger archery folks won't maybe remember or even know about it
but it was a huge deal, Hope I am not alone here recalling this stuff
then modern X bows hit the front pages, and Compound and traditional archery folks again hit the band wagon about not being fair
even now there are still many people that feel X bows are not fair tio use in archery hunting, due simply lack of having to draw a bow when game is present?
SO, at what speed would anyone feel, that the challange isn't the same, or maybe called fair
I mean we now have X bows in excess of 400 FPS, (some bows too are on the dge)which would be double many of the recurves and log bows many started with, and still use
I mean if they got to say 600-1,000 fps, would archery still be archety, or would the high speeds change the way we feel about it!
lack of arrow drop, and higher KE, and ??

I mean, I know from not only this site, but tons of folks, have issue's with LONG 50+ yrd shots, not just due to distance but all that is involved in it(loss of speed, KE, and accurace range extimation and arrow/bolt drop)
where as I think if we had bows sending arrows at 700-1,000 fps, how far would folks then shoot?
would range and speeds change your opinion on archery??
I know being a long range rifle shooter, and I have killed deer way out there
the challange of being a HUNTER, and NOT a SHOOTER differ a ton
sure skill is needed to shoot far, but I personally don't think its still the same game , you need less hunting skills to shoot far, and more shooting skills

and to me archery was always to challange my hunting skills to get close to game
so what does anyone else feel about modern progres with arrow speeds?
me I hope they stay where there at?

[hortontoter]

I think that the speed of the arrow doesn't really change things that much. An arrow will never be able to go through a tiny opening that a bullet can go through. And even the best shooters will need to deal with the arrow traveling slower than the speed of sound.

Like you said the longer the shootable range the less one needs to be a hunter. Most, archers like the challenge of getting game in close. Sure some guys will launch arrows at distances that we think is insane. But, just like rifle shooters these guys find the challenge in making the longer range kill.

I was at the rifle range yesterday shooting my .17HMR. A few other guys were there shooting off the benchrests. One fella in particular was quite impressive. He was shooting a custom rifle in a 6mmBR wildcat caliber. A cool looking round made from a shortened .22-250 cartridge. He was shooting at 300 yards and had consistant 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 inch groups. I on the other hand wasn't shooting of the benches. I had my tripod sat up on the cement floor and was sitting down resting the forearm in my tripod and my left elbow on my left knee just as I do while groundhog hunting. A couple guys questioned why I was doing that. I explained that I practice shooting this way because I see how I really shoot then. My groups were in the 2 to 2 1/2 inch range at 100 yards and I was happy with my shooting.

Just shows how different we all think about the same things. Yes a crossbow shooting at 1000 FPS sounds great. But, for myself, I think it would make little difference. I'd still be waiting for that perfect 20 yard broadside shot at the buck that has no idea I'm there.

[mrbb]

well I again personally feel if Bow , bows of any design, c got to super fast , flater shooting sppeds, more and mroe folks would start shooting farther and farther
creating a generation/s of hunters that have less and less hunting skills, and just more shooting skills
and be another nail in the coffin of hunting!
I know for a fact few hunters today learn the way I did, and so many others
the learning curve is not any way like it was, too much easy access to info, without needing to learn it hands on
I would honestly bet a nice chunk of cash, few modern genreation hunters know how to kill deer in large tracts of forest
too many rely on food plots, ground blinds and bait
and I am not bashing this way of hunting
just saying the skill level of hunter skills has shrunk, and I think faster bows will not help the deal!
same goes for long range rifle hunters
yrs back it took a lot of range time to get loads and rifles to group well
now a days it just takes a bunch of cash to buy top shelf items, with the work done by a rifle builder
sure skills are still used to shoot far accurately
but its learning the hows to get there that gets skipped today, and thus, make a less informed hunter!

[Mightymet]

I am fairly new to the archery an hunting sport. I started archery a couple of years ago and started really hunting last year. So I don't know if what I'm thinking will make since or not. First is about the cross bows. I don't use one but I imagine as I get older I may swing that way if it comes to not being able to be confident with my compound. So with that being said I will not really say much about them.

As far as speed goes with the compound bows I don't think it would really make you a better shooter past the yardage most hunters are shooting. In our area unless your over a cornfield or the like your probably going to still be at maybe a 30 yard max. I know in my favorite tree stand I could possibly take hits out to fifty but would most likely never do so unless some bullwinkle like deer was there and was receptive to any calls. Now lets say that situation presents itself. I have a clear 50 yard shot. I have a bow that's slinging my arrow at 600 fps. All this does is increase my KE at the point of impact and carries a greater amount of momentum. It will not make me a better shooter than I am now. All it does is get there faster. If you are unable to be consistent at 50 yards with the bow you have today you won't be much better with a faster one. Now lets say you are a great shot at 50. Then the advantage would be time. I'm not sure on the physics of this but I would imagine that at that speed the ratio of the sound verses the arrow flight to be closer to what would be a 30 yard shot with today's bows. That's the biggest advantage I see.

On a little bit of a side note I would like to say this. I am 37 years old. So I am very late to the party when it comes to archery and hunting. My generation didn't have quite as much technology as the next few after me but a bit more than the ones before me. The availability of information out there is great I my opinion when you're playing catchup. I did a lot of research and asked a lot questions before I went out to hunt. I spent countless hours in the woods scouting my property and prepping for opening day last year. I was rewarded with my first doe just after legal shooting light. I didn't shoot it over a feeder or a food plot. I was in the woods by a trail that leads from a farm behind us.

I have noticed that the older people get the less they like improvements. This goes for the technology that has been put into bows a well. If it weren't for companies like bowtech, strothers, elite, and many more we would all still be shooting single cam bows with solid limbs. The technology of bows has grown like crazy over the last ten years. It's amazing what's out there now. I hope that a I get older I will still embrace the new technology that comes out. I think some if the manufactured need to do the same. A prime example is Mathews. The make very high quality equipment that is wonderful to shoot. But there arrogance of there design is holding them back. The solo cam was great for a long time but they have been caught. They can make them as light and quiet a possible but it seems today speed is where it at. Which brings me back to the original question.

I say make them as fast as possible so I can use heavier arrows with wicked broad heads and take that shot I would have passed on. I want my arrow to destroy that stupid little pin size branch I didn't see and stay true. I want it to blow through both shoulders if need be. I want the most devastating bow available when I go out there. And I don't want it to have a stupid name like the experience. Bad job bowtech.


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[mrbb]

well one of the bigger advantages of a 60 FPS bow, would be the flat shooting it would also have , as that would take a lot of the skill to remain accurate of guessing range of a target, and being a old timer more or less in archery, yrs back with SLOWER bow, the drop from miss guessing yardage , was very easy to cause a miss
so a super fast bow would take a lot of that away, as then you would only be worrying (to a point) about aiming, and not range, many of todays fast bow, hold pretty well from 10-20-30 yrds as with todays speeds(sure there is drop, but its getting less as speeds increase)
and this was just a what if topic
to me, again being an old school hunter
they whole reason I got into archery was the added challange of having to get close to a deer, to become a better hunter, not a better shooter, sure I wanted to be a good shot with a bow, but it was the challange and thrill of beating the odds and getting up close and personal with a deer
for yrs and yrs my goal as a kid was to see if I could sneak up and touch a deer, and did several times
and it wa sthat thrill I looked for once I started bow hunting, and still prefer
I know guys with X bow's and high power target scopes shooting small groups at 100 yrds
to me, that kinda ruins the bow hunting aspect of bow hunting
not bashing folks that do it, just saying, or asking, is there a point when its not really archery anymore??

its liek asking, if they can make inlines shoot a 1,000 yrds or shotgun slugs that shoot a 1,000 yrds
is it the same as what a flintlock once was? or a old punkinball shotgun slug, things that typically didn't group well past 75 yrds
does there come a point to others when they feel, what's the difference then between them and a high power rifle?

just using them as examples

[Mightymet]

I agree with what your saying. It's an awesome feeling when a deer is so close you can hear its breath. I also agree with your thoughts on a cross bow. I think it gives the hunter a little to much confidence and leads to mistakes. Where I hunt there used to be a kid that also hunted there. He used a crossbow. He missed a lot. I came across two of his bolts last year. Like I said before unless I can't shoot confidently with my compound I don't plan to use one.

To me the speed would allow for a better arrow and bigger heavier broad head design that would allow for a more lethal shot at realistic yardage. Those of us in the woods are lucky to get 30 yard shots. I shot a small 7 point last year at 27 yards. I unfortunately spine shot him with the first shot. He came in behind me on the left and was by a tree I ranged at 30. So when I got him to stop he was a little closer than I thought. The arrow was stuck in his spine. When he settled down I ranged him at 27. He was turned towards me a little and I had to go through the shoulder to put him down. The arrow blew through and did its job but it would be great if I had no doubt it would penetrate.

Realistically I wonder what it would take to develop these hypothetical speeds. What kind of draw weight are we talking. 100 plus pounds? Next to no let off? I know there are guys that would shoot these but that's not for me. I like my 80% let off. It allows me to hold for quite a while so I can make the best shot possible. I have shot some bows with 60% let off and I don't mind to tell you I'm not a fan. Call me lazy but they are not fun.